Harris59's Blog (10 followers)

Understanding trophy hunters: The infallible inevitabilityPermalink
Howdy TT folks, today I have a blog which relies on you guys, I'm here to learn and I want to see and understand something from other perspectives. This blog was sparked by the latest news and some feed spam caused by the newly introduced way to cheat the infamous 'Infallible' trophy from Fall Guys. Initially a (massively overrated) consistency challenge for those who were able to perform well at the game on a regular enough basis to string 5 wins together now can be finished in a matter of minutes with a small group of friends in private matches. Whether or not this will be patched soon (or ever) is to be seen but even if it does, a new exploit is inevitable as is the case with most games. It always has been and always will be the case, there will always be an exploit for most games and trophy lists at some point, big or small.

What confusion this sparks is the response and what motivations the trophy hunting community even has regarding not only these trophies, but trophies in general. I used to (I think) understand back in the day what motivations trophy hunters had for the cheats and exploits in games. Early on there wasn't a plethora of Ratalaika-like titles to binge out trophies on and therefore by exploiting and cheating other games trophy lists it enabled the person to get way more trophies in less time, simple as that right? I can get my head around that pretty easily. I've always understood that trophy hunting (at least the hardcore scene) is a numbers game, whether it be Hannah Montanna and the like back then or your Mayos and Slydes today it's always at least made basic sense for an outsider such as myself. Easier trophies = more trophies, therefore trophy hunter will do whatever it takes to make trophies easier, I thought I understood things. Whilst it's never been something for me and I don't fully understand how people enjoy grinding out a number I do at least see the motivations, the end goal etc.

Where things get unusual is that a lot of these more difficult or time consuming games also have outbreaks of trophy hunters exploiting and cheating to complete them, usually it becomes a trend where many jump on that game at once. This is where I don't understand the motivations because in playing these games, even with said exploits, they often take considerably longer to 100% than a Ratalaika-like, which kind of eliminates that motivation of doing it for the numbers... So, what else is there?

Granted there's a small subset of players I can get my head around slightly, the OCD completionists, 100% accounts etc. trying to maintain their complete account when they lack the ability to finish a games trophy list naturally (I even hear those kind of people pay others to get them trophies out of their league). Do I still think it's silly myself? Yeah, but just like those doing the numbers game, I at least understand their end goal and what motivates them to do what they do. But what I'm seeing is people who are far away from having a 100% account and people who've never even had the game on their profiles before today leaping to quickly cheat that trophy and I see it time and time again with other games. I don't understand for what reason someone would buy a game, cheat a few trophies and then continue to grind out the rest of the games trophy list when they clearly had no intent of playing the game before the exploit existed. If it were for the numbers, well, it's too slow compared to the plethora of easy game out there at this point. I did for a moment think 'maybe it's just for bragging rights?' The game does have a fairly overblown reputation for difficulty after all so maybe people are trying to pose as doing so legitimately but... Nope, every person who I've seen who have used this cheat method (and other games in the past) mostly openly admit to doing it this way so... It's not like they're trying to deceive people either. It almost appears, to me, as if trophy hunters perhaps see some kind of weird draw or novelty to these larger exploits for difficult or infamous trophies/achievements, like they're getting one over on the system perhaps? Some kind of sense of power and control? Otherwise I'm just struggling to understand the motivation behind jumping onto these exploits when they pop up.

So this is where I naturally turn to all of you, being as some of your are (or at least have more experience with) trophy hunters perhaps you can shed some light on the subject for me and help me learn what the motivations are, your thought processes etc.

I'm not in any way hating upon those who choose to do this kind of thing, ultimately it has no effect on me nor should it on anyone else how other people choose to live their life and consume their media but it's just one area of trophy hunting which I fail to understand or grasp. Why do you want what is effectively a random badge saying 'I did this' for something you haven't done or were unable to do for whatever reason (not enough time, lack of ability etc.) especially when you'd even admit yourself that you haven't done it? There's thousands upon thousands of other badges out there which you CAN get so why does one random one you couldn't suddenly matter when it's exploitable? Like, I had a random certificate from primary school that says I swam some small distance (can't remember how much, it's long gone now), if I couldn't swim at all... why would I suddenly want to get a fake certificate and let everyone know it's fake? I just don't get it, just seems utterly pointless, heck, the fact mine is long gone just goes to show how little I cared about that certificate to begin with.

I covered cheating before in another blog of mine a long time ago ( Harris59's blog post - Pro Profile Masquerade ) and trying to understand it, in that blog I was specifically aiming my attention at those who do it and claim to have done so legitimately (and I've learned a lot since then). Those types pose as something they are not for various reasons and whilst I typically dislike those kind of people (part of the reason I don't really use social media, I prefer honesty and authenticity above all) at least I feel like I have some sense of understanding there as to why they lie. Whether it be to appear 'better' than they are or because they know they'll get caught out and crave conflict etc. or even if they are just a compulsive liar by habit. But as I've pointed out in this blog, this is a different breed. An honest and transparent type of cheating which leaves in my mind an empty void of explanation... Help me to understand.

Please leave me your thoughts here
Do you jump to new exploits yourself and if so why?
If you don't, do you have understanding of why or any potential theories?
Do you care in any way about others use of exploits?
Posted by Harris59 on 14 May 21 at 20:28
NekoRave The best way I can explain the desire for this particular game (at least in my experience) was the fact its online, the devs joked about if they had more complaints they would up to to 10 in a row. So that being said it was all salt to begin with. Now I'm against single player major exploits but at the end anything can be an exploit even if you earn it. In resident evil 5 you can play the game on the easiest mode and unlock an infinite rocket launcher which can be used for professional. I miss when games specified using only the base gear (dead space using the first weapon the pistol) but in this game its online and eventually the game won't be able to be beaten so I find the exploit more reasonable whereas if it were a single player game (some of which you can pay money for op dlc weaponry) is the same concept or in some cases virtually skipping games all together. (jak 2 debug menu, cuphead, hollow knight invincibility exploit).

In single player games idgaf what you do but for me I wouldn't be rushing to get some major exploit done but in cases like this or Marvels avengers which is essentially online/grindy trophies I personally don't see a problem as boosting is essentially cheating yet we all boost tbh.

For online I'm more worried about the servers but everyone will differ on preferences
Posted by NekoRave on 14 May at 21:18
DJbruce92 I have about 200 hours in the game, Most I've won in a row was 3 matches and even with Squad Goals, I was struggling, Do I feel bad about using an exploit? No but I'm also not trying to pass it off as having done it legit, The new way to get Infallible in custom games is getting patched in the next update. Confirmed by the dev team today.
Posted by DJbruce92 on 14 May at 22:52
BeardedScot86 I did the old exploit as you know. My reasoning, I was finishing up with the game and wanted to move on with it complete. If it had an all solo mode, I may have stuck with it and done it legit, but I was sick of losing due to a poor team.

It really depends on the trophy. For example, Battlefield 5 I have read you can do it on easy, then repeat the final part on hardest setting to make it easier. I am going at it properly because it isn't too hard.
Posted by BeardedScot86 on 14 May at 23:03
smittenkitten333 I enjoy reading how insightful your blogs are. You think kinda like how I do. I wonder why people do what they do from an outside prospective to try and understand more than a means to judge. Though, I don't like cheating if it's online typically since it can ruin others games I couldn't care less if a person does it offline. So, I guess I feel the same in exploiting glitches. I've done it in the past with a game. I played the game legit got most the trophies but it was a difficulty based trophy and there was an exploit where you could use chapter select to get it. I got the platinum for the game and still need the dlc. Do I feel bad? Not really. But it was a game I enjoyed as well with or without getting 100%. ^^ But people can think differently than me.
Posted by smittenkitten333 on 14 May at 23:31
Slayer1189 Intro
Firstly, I don't consider myself to be a 'trophy hunter'. I play games and I check trophy lists. They are a nice target when I'm playing a game. I like stats tracking coz I'm a big nerd who will play anything and everything redface

As for why people jumped on Infallible, it appears to me to fall into 3 camps broadly speaking;

1) People like checking off lists.

2) People play games for fun, but also want high completion/to move onto other games when a game is "done"

3) People specifically like 'infamous' titles on their account. Some of these are misrepresented and overblown; some are not. It doesn't matter either way. These players care about their profile as viewed.

My stance on all of the above is that I don't care if you fall into any or none of the above. I also don't care if you outright hack your trophies. All I care about is that you are happy and enjoying your hobby smile

Where I stand
A little side note because it comes up often on trophy sites. The only person who really cares about your trophy list is you. The majority of the world population don't game and the majority that do... don't care for trophies. The reality is you know what you earned, how you earned it and how you feel about that!

The people you speak to on this site might cheer you on for completing a game or hitting a milestone, but this isn't caring about HOW/WHERE you earn trophies... It is more just following a group of people with a similar hobby throughout their journey. It's about camaraderie with people with a shared interest. It feels good to be part of a community y'know?

There are VERY rare examples of people who do care about what others do with their time. These people are silly and can be dismissed laugh

We are a minority group within a minority group to even be using this site. We have more in common with our hobby than we do differences, despite our different playstyles and game preferences. I hope we all enjoy ourselves now and for many a year to come toast
Posted by Slayer1189 on 15 May at 01:04
Slayer1189 Just posting to say I read your comment Atsuma. My comment still covers any response smile
Posted by Slayer1189 on 15 May at 01:29
Harris59 And I'm just going to post to say I've not read it yet, but I'll chow down tomorrow on that chunky response laugh looking forward to seeing what you had to say and responding to everyone here and anyone else who wants to throw some more perspectives.
Posted by Harris59 on 15 May at 01:39
AtsumaKarin First of all, this was a well constructed and articulated blog post on this subject. toast

I don't know whether my response will help you understand or not but I can try.

The first response kinda alluded to part of what I am about to say but there are quite a lot of other factors at play here imo.

Part 1: I'll start by reiterating the point re: the devs: they showed utter contempt towards trophy hunters specifically from the very beginning, bragging that their trophy was one of the hardest on PSN and even GOADING them with that we could've made it 10 to annoy people, generally speaking, they have little interest in appealing to that portion of the community, which, as a trophy hunter myself (albeit on break rn) is never a good way to get people on side with you.

Part 2: it's a hardcore, theoretically skill-based trophy that has been put into the list of a game that is NEITHER of those things, it's TOTALLY misplaced for this game and adds an extra layer of annoyance for those of us who do like to complete their games wherever possible and actually outright DETRACTS from the point of the game, to have silly fun with your friends. Those fun grabbing mechanics "LOL! I pushed you off the edge" suddenly is no longer fun if you were on a 4 streak and you get teamed on in the Final, ya know?

Part 3 (and this I feel is the kicker here) - it means NOTHING in any context you can think of. At the start, it could outright glitch and unlock when you'd won 5 matches not even in a row, servers would constantly die and ruin your streak, the aforementioned griefiing, team games, the numerous luck-based mechanics etc etc, I think you get my point here.

As you said, it's totally mispresented, it doesn't prove you're a hardcore gamer, it doesn't prove you are awesomely skilled, it just proved that you had some mild aptitude with the game and played for long enough to get it (or got used to the mechanics the most quickly early on) and got a tremendous amount of luck/held your nerve when presented with the opportunity...if you did it legit, otherwise, the various exploits that have existed to make it easier, plus intended new additions to make it easier (final shows and squads), means it WILDLY varies in its difficulty and is HIGHLY dependent on so many different factors, it literally cannot be any lower than 99.999999% luck, I would liken this to getting a Royal Flush in Texas Hold 'em on XBLA way back when, it may take *slightly* more ability to actually be able to win...but for this trophy specifically, it's on a par with it in the sense of realistically obtaining it. You could play 5 games and win all 5 with a lot of luck...or you could play 5,000,000 games and never get more than a streak of 3 and any permutation you dare to dream of. Heck, I'd even say I had as much chance of winning the lottery jackpot as getting this the "legit" way, not even kidding.

Now, the most skilled players at this will naturally win more games overall...but to actually nail a 5 streak (at least with the vanilla setup), I would say is that kinda % for all but *maybe* the Top 10 in the World (if you can even really measure that, I would assume it would have to be number of wins) and even *then*, I would say it's at BEST 5% skill - 95% luck ratio to get the streak and I feel I'm being generous there.

There's no real science behind those numbers, I'm just trying to illustrate the difference between the 2 more than anything else and I'm thinking of it moreso with the vanilla setup, naturally the new additions increase the odds but I really wouldn't say substantially, it will still be mostly luck.

So then if you're taking it from the gloating aspect...what is there to gloat about? It's not a genuinely insanely difficult trophy...it's a genuinely INSANE trophy, yes but not difficult and how could you tell the difference between the people who did it "legit" and who didn't anyway? It's misrepresented and shifts in difficulty constantly, where can you place it in your proudest feats? Exactly, NOWHERE, because it's nothing that you can quantify.

Now, I'm not saying you can't be happy to have the trophy or w/e, "legit" or not, and as I said to you before, it takes some dedication to do it properly without exploits, that is to be commended...but I could commend people for the same thing if they get Bejeweled 2 Endless Mode despite being glitched out of it several times or for grinding something 100+ hours past all the other trophies and so forth, it's pretty much entirely the same thing, not much skill and just dedication, as you said, misrepresented.

What puzzles me the most, though and I'm sure you'll agree with me on this at least...I don't get why some people seem to think they have the divine right to complete each game they play just because they paid for it? If things are too hard, people are so damn quick to complain and get them nerfed, I'm sure there are countless examples but the 2 that spring to mind for me are Trials HD Marathon, which got nerfed and Mein Leben in Wolfenstein II, which AFAIK, wasn't nerfed. I 100% disagree with nerfing these, because these trophies, ridiculous or not, that's subjective, are not REMOTELY unfair, they were predominantly skill-based, all about how good YOU got at the game, nothing else but your ability, your nerve or your dedication stopping you from getting these, it's all on YOU.

I can't say the same for Fall Guys, there is very little you can do about it if you are pushed off the edge, the server dies or the game just glitches in some other way and ruins your 20th 4 Win streak.

I think Infallible is actually the WORST example you can use as a reason not to nerf trophies for all the above, it never should have been included in the first place and should've been nerfed/replaced pretty quickly to something that made sense for the game. IDK, how about push people off the edge 1000 times? Because that's what's happening anyway. facepalm

Naturally, I was being somewhat facetious with that...but it STILL makes FAR more sense for that to be a trophy than Infallible ever could.

As a side-note: there's a culprit that has the OPPOSITE kind of problem to this: Celeste, where the entire purpose of the game is to overcome struggle and climb the mountain, literally and figuratively...well designed, really moving, you name it...but then for some reason, they include Assist Mode, which can completely erode any kind of challenge that the game presents...and worst of all, trophies will STILL pop with it enabled!!! And even if you just turn it on to see what it's like, it permanently scars your profile that you ever used it, even if you don't beat any levels like that, it legitimately baffles me just how often developers get it wrong with trophies in general.

As for where I Fall into this discussion (I guess there had to be a pun somewhere here...) - I am a trophy hunter, in general, I like to be a completionist too (though some would disagree with me on that), basically, if it's not "just" an easy trophy game or isn't something that involves mindless grinds above and beyond completing all the missions or w/e, I like to go for 100% in my games, most of the time if I don't manage it, it's not a lack of ability, it's because I get side-tracked by other games or IRL stuff, then by the time I want to come back to it, I'm out of the loop and don't feel like I can ever get back into it again (looking at you, DQ XI) cry

I don't mean to sound conceited or arrogant with this statement...but I am a highly skilled gamer, I have accomplished so many genuinely difficult feats across XBLA and PSN, I tend to avoid online games like the plague for this very reason, besides social anxiety, I like it to be about *my* ability and nothing else when I complete stuff, not if I keep getting screwed by bad luck while someone else less skilled than me plays for an hour and does the same thing.

Specifically re: this game: it actually made me QUESTION my ability, if I actually *was* good at games anymore for a bit, esp. as Platformers are my main genre (which technically this isn't classed as one on TT as it's on the light side of the spectrum really and Party is the major genre) but nonetheless...it actually really GOT to me, that many of my friends could somewhat easily get 3 or 4 streaks, sometimes multiple times where I only ever got 2 two win streaks legit, though none that I knew besides you managed to do all 5 legit. Until I eventually realised that I too was victim to the misrepresented nature of it, that I paid too much heed to its supposed reputation and ultimately just didn't think it was worth my while or would ever get it, because as I said already, it proved NOTHING. If I'd played it enough, I had as much chance as anyone to do it legit...but what would be the point? And all the time I spent trying would be FAR better spent elsewhere on genuinely worthwhile, challenging, FUN trophies...or as it is these days, Trials Rising LB climbing. In any case, regardless, ANYTHING is more worth my time than a trophy such as Infallible.

So naturally, given all of the above, it was like all my Christmases came at once that I could cheat this utter BS trophy, a trophy that should NEVER have been included and that proves NOTHING, I could FINALLY put this game to bed forever and will more than happily delete this from my HDD once it's patched, I wish I'd never started this game prior to this exploit, at least I can have the extra Plat in my pocket now, cheated for or not, I don't care, because it is meaningless anyway in terms of its prestige/significance or rather, lack thereof. It's actually such a huge relief I won't have this constant reminder on my profile now.

As for the broader question "Why do you want what is effectively a random badge saying 'I did this' for something you haven't done or were unable to do for whatever reason (not enough time, lack of ability etc.) especially when you'd even admit yourself that you haven't done it? There's thousands upon thousands of other badges out there which you CAN get so why does one random one you couldn't suddenly matter when it's exploitable?" - I still technically did it, it's another one in the collection, cheated or not and honestly, comparing it to real life situations such as "I'll get a fake swimming certificate" is not an entirely accurate comparison imo, sure, if we're talking with regards to the sense of accomplishment, it's the same thing...but a lot of people will claim to have done things they haven't for status, money, power, you name it, if they can get away with it, they will. It's human nature for people to take the easiest route a lot of the time, hence why people want other stuff nerfed (and inc. this) - fundamentally, I actually agree with the sentiment, I want to actually accomplish things myself the right way...difference is here...is it's a videogame and a trophy that doesn't prove accomplishment of anything noteworthy. wink

With regards to other exploits as a whole, though, even skill-based trophies...if an exploit exists, people will use it, any feeling past self-satisfaction is then destroyed because it no longer holds any meaning with your peers, I can't speak for every trophy hunter naturally...but I would imagine a high percentage of them are doing it for recognition as much as self-satisfaction. I'd be lying if I said I haven't been one of those people historically (and to a lesser extent now) - as long as it's not likely to get them banned (CFW, paying money for trophies etc) - it's still that person actively performing the task, cheatsy or not so I never like to outright say it's not "legit" as legit means different things to different people - but no denying that exploiting is a form of cheating/cheesing as a whole, but at least you have to go to the effort of doing *something* to do it that way. At this point, the trophy/achievement system is LONG gone anyway, (special thanks to Sony allowing multiple variants of the same game to really hammer that one home) so as you say, just do what you want and enjoy it. toast

IDK if any of this will have helped you understand your query but maybe it has a little? I have ranted about this topic COUNTLESS times in the past on TT and Discord and frankly, I'm jaded about the whole discussion at this point, so this will hopefully be the final time, I think I've exhausted it at this point anyway.

TL;DR: Infallible should never have existed, poorly handled by devs, misrepresented by the community, exploit found, people can get it and move on. toast
Posted by AtsumaKarin on 15 May at 02:11
AtsumaKarin Just in case you're wondering, I made a few minor adjustments to the OP and deleted the old one,
Posted by AtsumaKarin on 15 May at 02:12
AbyssWatcher85 A game is a way of escaping the bitter reality we live in, so using or not exploits in video games doesn't really matter as long as not using cheats or other illegal means, gaming is still a hobby not a way of life ;)
Posted by AbyssWatcher85 on 15 May at 14:47
Harris59 Response time

@NekoRave For this specific game/trophy I can totally see that, they certainly baited the trophy community with their comments and I guess I can almost see this behaviour as a rebellious 'FU' action of sorts. I think we can all admit, whichever side of the fence we are on, that Infallible was misplaced for Fall Guys. It didn't make sense for the game it was in. Totally don't mind methods to speed up arbitrary grinds (like rubber banding AFK grinds) to round off a completion. Boosting is not so much an area I agree with, but in the case of dead/dying games in which the option to 'do it legit' doesn't exist or the deadline for a server closure is unrealistic to do it on time then I guess that's fair enough. It's just when there is an active playerbase and the opportunity to earn it is still present that I'd not be in favour of boosting. But as I always say, it's up to others how they want to enjoy their things so long as they're not directly impacting other people's matches in public lobbies. I used to remember MW2 nuke boosters, they used to ruin the free for all playlist and I'd view them the same I would griefers, teamkillers in Siege etc. If there's an option to do it in private matches, do it, if it needs to be in public matches then get enough people to fill a lobby so you don't impact on a strangers games.

@DJbruce92 Part of me did wonder if it could have been intentional to put a stop to boosting groups or something but hearing they're going to patch it, I guess not laugh

@BeardedScot86 I kind of understand that kind of thing, someone wanting to wrap up a game that may be sitting at 99%, seems to be more common place with the people I know here and elsewhere. What certainly lost me was the sudden surge in people starting the game to jump on the exploit. I do reckon you could have done it legitimately, you had some close calls, but to wrap a game up it probably wasn't worth the extra time investment from you and I can understand that.

@smittenkitten333 Thanks, I sometimes enjoy writing them whenever I think of anything to write about. Seems like another similar idea where you'd go for it to wrap up a nearly finished completion, seems like a fairly common thought regarding exploits and such. I admit my time being in communities like this one has lead me to think about wrapping things up I may not have beforehand. Whilst I wouldn't use exploits, I have done some pointless post game grinds (grinding out deaths in Hyper Light Drifter for example) to round up that nearly complete game to 100%. Y'all be having an influence on me.

@Slayer1189 Seeing a fair few number 2s here and elsewhere, rounding off completions and whatnot. You're definitely right that only person who cares about a list is oneself, sometimes I feel like people think others are invested in their lists and want to impress etc. but truth is aside from maybe the odd comment no ones really all that interested in what your list looks like. I see your stuff come up on my feed, I comment time to time, we talk in the Discord etc. but I don't know all that much about your entire list and I haven't really looked outside of basic 'at a glance' information (maybe I should, could start doing those 'trophy review' type videos, you can be my first victim laugh) and I imagine the same can be said for the reverse, you've seen my feed but you probably haven't stared down my profile top to bottom and dissected every detail and don't really care what's there or isn't there other than to perhaps recommend a game I haven't played that I may like or to nudge each other to go for something we haven't finished.

Those who do REALLY care, these people can be dismissed indeed. It really shouldn't matter how someone else chooses to spend their life. I saw a video show up on my TikTok feed (yeah, I've been suckered into that app too...) of a trainspotter getting super excited, the driver used the horn as he went by him and he excitedly waved back at the train. It was... fairly sweet to watch, this guy so genuinely happy and content with his hobby. Open up the comments and it's predictably just a load of people roasting the person, telling the guy to get a life and all that nonsense. I don't understand how someone else's joy can in any way hurt or impact your life negatively?

@AtsumaKarin Your part 1 I can totally see in regards to this particular Fall Guys example, it's very clear they were baiting the trophy community, it was like an attack and the rebellious 'in your face' response of exploiting the trophy does seem to make it make a bit more sense.

Part 2, absolutely. I cannot agree more. Wherever you stand in regards to the difficulty or fairness of said trophy or whatever else your opinion may be, I think most can agree that it's completely at odds with the type of game it is. It's a casual party game, they've even explicitly told people who were begging for competitive ranked modes that this is not what the game is about. It's not an esport and anyone taking the game that seriously might need to reevaluate a few things personally. This would be like having an achievement for Pokemon (just assume you don't need HMs for this okay) to beat the game only using your starting Pokemon and to not catch any, not even dare throw a single Pokeball. Could it be an interesting challenge... Maybe? Speedrunners already borderline do this aside from HM slaves and Nuzlockes are relatively closely related with the catching restrictions but the whole catchphrase is GOTTA CATCH EM ALL... Why would you want explicitly want people to play the game the complete opposite as you intended for 100% completion? Not saying you can't do that, but it does seem very unusual.

I kind of went over this once before in another blog about what I consider completion and the like, how detached I am from trophies and completion itself. I think a list should represent game completion as a bare minimum with maybe some fun challenges sprinkled in to spice things up and allow for some creativity. I have mild complaints with games that the platinum unlocks in before completing 100% of the game content but likewise arbitrary grinds and unnecessary extras feel so disconnected from completion that I'd prefer they didn't exist either in the ideal list.

Part 3, you're correct, it never meant anything since from day 1 it was busted. People unlocked it unintentionally due to server issues, on the flip side people did it and it didn't count... Again, server issues. Then you had the 'leave the game' exploit for a long time (willing to wager almost half the achievers did it that way, heck maybe more). It's always been assumed if someone has Infallible then it's likely because they cheesed it in one way or another. I knew whilst going for it myself that there was an exploit and that dozens of people already did that exploit, I knew that I wouldn't be getting any props for doing it and no one would or should care that I got it or how I got it. I did it because I simply wanted to meet the criteria set by the trophy, I didn't want a badge that said I got 5 wins in a row if I did not in fact get 5 wins in a row, so I went and got 5 wins in a row. It really is just that basic and simple in my head lol, I rather my list exist as a representation of the actions I have and haven't took.

My prior example of a swimming certificate probably wasn't a good choice, maybe a to-do list would be better. Let's say I have 3 items on my to-do list: Get petrol for a trip tomorrow, buy chocolates for the journey, renew my passport. Now, I renew my passport and head to the shop, but instead I get some Werthers Originals because apparently I'm an old man and I have an addiction to them (this is not even a joke laugh) and I don't top-up my petrol because a friend says he'll take me instead. The end result is yes, I'm still going on that trip and I've still got myself a snack, but I wouldn't put a tick next to chocolates and fill petrol on my to-do list because I didn't do either of those things. I don't actually make to-do lists and I don't drive so... I wouldn't do any of that anyway, but I'm sure you get the idea.

I would definitely agree it's misrepresented, it's not a hardcore skill game. It's not precision platforming (more physics based) and there are some random factors baked into some of the rounds themselves. However, I will say you perhaps do a disservice to the skill element of the game. This isn't exactly a full on party or gambling type game, it's not Mario Party or Slots. Better players perform consistently better and whilst there are bouts of bad luck (same could be said for any multiplayer game at times) ultimately it is still a feat that relies a touch more on skill than luck I would say. As someone who solo queued plenty in Apex, Rocket League and Siege the luck of the draw with teammates and the caliber of your opposition was always there and since those are team games (well, unless you're playing solo modes) that stuff can be a game changer, but ultimately if I was on form that day then I'd have way more success and wins. I've had times where bad luck with enemy map movements in Apex got us pinned between many squads in an unfortunate location and we've lost but I wouldn't make the claim that to get back to back wins was primarily luck because it's much more skill dependent. Luck naturally plays a role in any multiplayer title (unless you're literally like the top 0.1% of players and can solo any situation) but I've had 5+ winstreaks on Apex, and any multiplayer game for that matter. I know some players who still haven't got a single crown in Fall Guys and it's quite apparent why .

Whilst I did Infallible legit, I also know I had it easier, this is in part because I believe skill does play a decent role. What I mean here is that I got it when the game was still relatively new and the playerbase was at a much lower standard of play. Whilst new features have been added that make earning it legit 'easier' in one aspect the level of competition is much harder, back in my day you'd be lucky to see more than a handful make it out of Slime Climb. This wouldn't be the case if the feat was entirely luck, the difficulty would surely remain constant over time regardless in improvements across the playerbase. If enemy skill is a significant factor in the difficulty then your own skill must by that logic also be a factor in your success.

There's only 2 games of which I felt luck played a significantly heavy role (unless they added more). Team Tail Tag and Jinxed, mostly because things can change so quickly in a matter of seconds through no fault of your own. Tail is slightly more controllable with a party and has less eliminations as only one team is eliminated which boosts your odds but Jinxed is admittedly a big killer though, but only to the extent that it's feels closer to a 50/50 coin flip when it shows up rather than a dice roll or something. Other team games have the same team luck elements as any multiplayer game but individually you can do so much more, particularly with the smaller team sizes. Games like Hoopsie and Scramble, if you know what you're doing, you can pretty much hard carry (especially back then, again, my early player advantage I admit, but if you improve your skills and strategy enough it's probably still possible to today, especially with at least 1 friend) and Fall Ball, as annoyingly repetitive as it was that it almost ALWAYS appeared before EVERY DAMN FINAL that's one that's easy to hard carry if you're good enough at it and still is to this day from what I've seen from people in a Discord I'm in.

You'll never see me claim this is a highly skilled or impressive game to be good at and I'll certainly concede there's plenty of luck elements that'll outright kill a perfectly healthy attempt at a 5 streak but I do think the 'luck' side of things is sometimes overblown a lot. I remember one website seeing people supposedly mathematically calculate the odds of getting a 5 streak (but using 1 in 60 odds) and just running with it to say how absurd the trophy is. That's more like the odds of rolling a 60 sided dice 5 times and wanting it to land on 1 each time, as if you had zero control over the outcome and that one was just so absurd when I saw it. There are people to this day who have over like 75% win rates, the amount of infallible equivalents they've probably done by now, they've probably even done a 10, heck, 20 in a row too. It's not because they're blessed by the RNG gods, they're just really damn good at the game to be honest.

Generally I guess I'm just a bit fatigued by the luck card being overly played (and this isn't aimed to you or anything). It's one thing I used to hate about people when talking about various rogue-likes, a similarly easy genre to throw the excuse at because of how the genre is presented. The luck of the draw for a game like The Binding of Isaac can lead to OP runs that are far easier to complete, but, ultimately you could never pick anything up and still succeed, or pick up only 'bad' items and still succeed through your own ability. Luck can make things a bit harder or easier in almost any game, what %age of shots by enemy AI in a shooter land while you were out of cover? Oh, you took 1 extra bullet and died? Bah, game is bullshit luck and not your fault right... Or... Think why did you get shot so much in the first place? Too exposed? Bad angles? Didn't clear enough enemies before they got into position?

Reason this somewhat grinds my gears is that I've seen first hand this excuse being misused in Fall Guys itself. A friend of mine wanted to group up, there was 4 of us. He was pretty angry at the fact he couldn't get the Infallible trophy (and I can't remember if the original exploit was patched by now of if he just didn't know about it?) and was blaming it on bad luck, claiming he was more than skilled enough to have it by now, using the whole 'it's only the team games that get me'. So we played for a bit, and numerous times I'd finish one of the race rounds and wait for the next round, when we see what it is I slip in a quick 'okay, it's this round up next, what you'll want to try and do is this' to try and help and they'll reply 'oh wait, sorry, I was eliminated last round'... What!? I just naturally assumed you made it through, I thought you were telling me you were good at this game and that luck was only thing holding you back yet you're consistently getting eliminated on probably the least luck oriented part of the game. Their least favourite final? Oh what a surprise, Hex-a-Gone, the most skill oriented final at the time. At that point it's like, are you sure luck is the problem? Obviously I would NEVER tell him that, I mean, that's just rude and insulting, but it does seem plain to see that they were using the party nature of the game as a cover to throw the luck card when it wasn't actually applying to him, he just wasn't consistently good at the game and that's fine, it's not meant to be taken that seriously. But just because it's a party game doesn't mean poor performance can be blamed squarely on it being a party game, skill factors fairly strongly I believe.

Sorry for the little detour, it's just whilst I can see the many many elements of luck in Fall Guys (heck, plenty of games to be fair) I do feel like sometimes many people overplay just how much luck plays a role so it's almost a bit of a trigger. I'm certainly not suggesting you're like that guy (you'd leave him in the dust mate, I'd bet on it, you beast) but I just wanted to share how I felt on the emphasis on luck people place whilst I was here, like I can't honestly look at the 95% luck 5% skill and even remotely take that seriously, sorry.

I definitely agree there's nothing to gloat about, anyone who's gloating about Infallible are a joke, and those who I heard about gatekeeping the trophy by joining boosting sessions pre-new exploit and sabotaging them need to get a grip honestly. Getting so many people together in one lobby seems like a lot of effort and they're in their own self contained lobby not hurting anyone else, seems sad to put so much value on the rarity of a god damn trophy to actively disrupt something 60-odd people have spent hours organising. Even if I don't agree with boosting active multiplayer games personally, I'm not about to go use my time intercepting them to gatekeep a trophy that no one should care about, it's god damn FALL GUYS, no one cares if you're a pro at Fall Guys... It's a goofy game about jumping beans for gods sake xD, losing faith in humanity day by day.

I do agree with disliking the attitude of having some divine right to complete something just because they paid for it. I do think accessibility is important though, for example the game you mentioned a bit later on, Celeste, I think assist mode is fine to an extent. The game is all about overcoming struggles and I sure as hell wouldn't use assist mode (I think it's on sale, I might get it), but, I think in buying a game you should be able to have the opportunity to at least enjoy the core story content. I don't think the post-game should have had assist mode at all since that exists almost solely as an extended challenge and I don't necessarily think trophies should have unlocked on that save file but I do believe that anyone should have the opportunity to play and experience games even if they have disabilities which require assistance in places or just if the persons lacks the skills or time to practice. I might be biased because of the degenerative condition I've always had which I loosely covered in a other blog where it's possible in the future I may have significantly worse hands and may be unable to play many games entirely.

Didn't know about the Trials nerf movement but I knew about Wolfenstein II, I thought that was silly and mostly because it fits the bill in my eyes for a genuine completion trophy list. I'm not sure if you remember, but I view the highest in game difficulty options, including the no death kind, as requirement for completion, therefore Wolfenstein II is an appropriate list for the game to me. Seeing people complain and petition for a trophy list to be nerfed to the point you no longer need to complete the game baffled me. As far as I know, I don't think it was nerfed, but like every game (as I said, an inevitability) I think there's a few exploits and cheeses discovered since then. It's not something I've followed, I had a little giggle at the petition but since it's in my backlog I don't want to spoil too much of the game for myself, I'll probably get around to it after I buy/play the first one of them.

Back to Fall Guys, agreed on your next comment, it shouldn't really have been in the game to begin with. I absolutely agree as I've said earlier that this trophy is a misfit for the nature of the game. Your suggestion to push people off edges would be an interesting inclusion, maybe just grabbing in general, though I'd rather not give more encouragement for people to grab my ass thank you very much lol. If I could come up with some kind of replacement, perhaps something with a similar 'consistency' vibe but not quite as egregious could be perhaps to win an episode while coming 1st/getting gold in every round? Qualifying from survival or 2-team rounds will net you them anyway right so it'll just come down to the races and the 3&4-team rounds. Luck will have a role in places, but it's probably more manageable and more dependent on yourself being consistent at races. Maybe another idea could be time trials, beat a preset time once on each of the races, or maybe just Slime Climb because it was the best one at launch as far as I'm concerned wink. It's a gold, so I'm trying to think of something that seems appropriate for its grade, but we could always divide it up into some goofy bronzes like ways to be eliminated, getting the special shortcuts on some levels, falling off the edge with an opponent that you're holding onto... Any of those sound interesting?

And now I'm up to the FALL pun... Shame on you Atsuma... I totally know what you mean with the sidetracked, particularly on longer games, RPGs and whatnot. Happened to me with Pokemon... Black? White? One of those two, I played it when it was fairly new up to like... 4 or 5 gyms? Saved in the middle of a cave and abandoned it. I picked the game up a few years later and didn't know where I was, which end of the cave I came from and which end I was actually aiming to get to, which town or NPC was my destination, what my goals were for my team or even who these characters around were and how they related or didn't relate to anything. Decided to abandon it again and it wasn't until maybe only a couple years back I started a fresh save and beat the game, finally marked as beaten on my Backloggery after all this time, but I didn't investigate the post game and probably never will having left it for so long again.

You arrogant bum, don't worry though, we know you're a beast, you're all beasts here as far as I'm concerned. I'm very similar in the view I'd like things to be based on my own skill and ability, but this is where my view is different, that doesn't make me dislike online multiplayer (what usually does that is either my dreadful schedule for matchmaking or being bored of solo-queuing because none of my friends play whatever the game is). I find that whilst there are variables in regards to my opposition it's still ultimately my ability being tested among the playerbase, a test of where I stand, just rather than against a static AI opponent that could be bruteforced it's against an ever changing, evolving and improving community of people. I beat Chess Ultra on Grandmaster difficulty, I plugged away at it, it eventually happened. If I were to keep playing REAL Grandmasters over and over hoping to beat one it's NEVER going to happen and if it did, there's always players beyond that, the ceiling is far higher for multiplayer competition than it would ever be in single player. That's why speedrunning and self imposed challenges exist, because there's only so much you can progress against a static opposition without changing the rules. The thing that gets me however is co-op, sure there's games you can hard carry a teammate, just look at Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 if you want an example where one player can literally carry the other into a free trophy, but relying on other players ability and/or schedule for my own progress and success is a nuisance. Some games are harder to solo in co-op but not impossible because your partner doesn't outright need to do anything (Doom 1&2 for example, I did it mostly with an idle second controller that just sat there dead) whilst other games if your partner is bad it actively impacts you, such as games where the mission is failed if your partner dies. I can babysit them as much as possible, but if they get killed that's my efforts wasted. Likewise, I wouldn't want to burden another player if I'm the crappy one constantly failing the mission for them or if my awkward schedule is leaving them waiting on me to progress in their game.

As for doubting yourself, even if I were to agree with it being entirely luck based, I'd still understand doubting yourself. If I were to keep losing at a damn slot machine I'd probably have doubts in my gaming ability so I think that's completely natural lol and I think you're far better off spending your time elsewhere if you didn't enjoy going for the wins. As we've basically concluded, this trophy never has been and never will be anything prestigious to gloat about, it's not worth any stress. While on the subject of Trials Rising though... I'm tempted to join the club...

As for the quotation, I think I've already touched upon that already earlier, I'm getting so side tracked I don't even know what I have or haven't already covered in this post.

You've been some help for sure, I love a good discussion about any of this kind of stuff and it's interesting learning about your perspective on the matter. I am aware that there's a lot of discussion surrounding Infallible specifically and it's not something I've actively engaged in so much so to me a lot of this conversation is new ground and understanding new perspectives, to you it's probably so old and tiresome to even think about again. I haven't really read much of PSNP, but I've seen the post count on those threads... I don't dare trawl through it.

TL;DR: Infallible and stuff, amirite?

Thanks for the response dude, and I'm sorry for the mess of a response, maybe half of this would be better suited to its own expanded separate topics but I type in such a free flowing ramble and bounce from topic to topic I'd dread to want to be an editor for me

@AbyssWatcher85 Amen to that wink.
Posted by Harris59 on 15 May at 18:35
BeardedScot86 I have my theory on why so many are starting the game to exploit it. My thinking it so many refused to play it as they saw it as too hard and therefore something they would be stuck unable to finish. With the exploit, they can now get that hassle out of the way and go on to enjoy the game knowing they can get through it
Posted by BeardedScot86 on 15 May at 18:43
AtsumaKarin Don't wanna write another novel as it seems we are practically completely in agreement in all parts, apart from the luck bit wink

I still maintain it is predominantly luck and skill will increase your odds, ofc it will, with the *possible* exception of the "Elite" at this game as stated before. (though I still don't really believe that)..but in general, winning any one game = skill > luck, any given streak = luck > skill.

Also, the 3 examples you listed, Apex, Rocket League, Siege, I would class all 3 of those as being VASTLY more skill based than luck (well, I'll admit I'm semi-guessing on Siege as I haven't played it but I can't see why I'd be wrong) - with Apex, you can occasionally get bad drops and not find a gun in a supply bin, maybe have the odd random glitch or bug occur...but besides that, strategy, teamwork, skill will all trump luck and the more of those you have, the more likely you are to win, nothing is 100% skill based when it comes to playing with others (that I can think of anyway) - closest to that you achieve is anything where your play doesn't directly impact other players (e.g. Darts) as it's all just a mind-game in that instance.

Rocket League - once again, mistakes can happen as no-one is Infallible (there you go, another pun) wink but in general, the best teams will win 99% of the time.

Siege, I'll just assume is similar to Apex or any other typical FPS. You might have a bad day or a bug could occur but skill will nearly always triumph over luck.

I really can't say the same with Fall Guys, once you have learnt the strats for each game, you are at the mercy of the other players, bugs, server problems etc as I said before, it wasn't designed to be a skill-based game, it's far too simplistic for that, it was designed to be a laugh, which is absolutely fine when you don't put a trophy like Infallible in. wink

Take something like Mario Party, there is a luck factor in that as well (another pretty big one tbf) but ya know what, there are several ways you can use your ability/tactics to turn the tide in it, be it from winning mini-games, stealing coins instead of stars, changing the direction you go on the board, items etc. So I actually think it's pretty skill-based for a Party Game, though still not as much as the examples you listed, FG? Nope, learn the mechanics, the strats and it's a roll of the dice as far as I'm concerned. Play long enough and you *might* do it legit but as I already said, it's too big of a headache to really want to do it and ruins the game imo.

But yeah, fair enough if you don't come around to that argument, we can agree to disagree here. toast

It's just whenever it comes to relying on other people, there will always be a luck factor because you have to rely on them not screwing up/not winning depending on co-op or versus and the more people that are in there, the higher that luck ratio will be.

I just in general don't like streak trophies in particular, they are probably the worst type of online trophy you can have besides be Rank #1 or something like that - good luck getting that legit if people boost for it to oblivion (it's why I didn't get Rank 5 in Robotron or Joust despite being good enough for it potentially) - but I can concede that streak trophies at least make sense in an FPS or a Fighting game, it makes zero sense here.

Well, so much for me not writing a novel. laugh If you do get into Trials, I hope you will have me on your list for some LB chasing. toast
Posted by AtsumaKarin on 15 May at 19:15
AtsumaKarin Oh, and I forgot to address the Celeste bit...all they needed to have done was disable trophies if Assist Mode was added and it would've been miles better, I still think it doesn't make sense to have it (to that degree) in a game like Celeste...but if it disabled trophies, I could at least have let it slide.
Posted by AtsumaKarin on 15 May at 19:16
Harris59 And this just goes to show why I like this little community we've got going over here, we can civilly agree to disagree on something wink.

For me, thing is I'd argue that while intended to not be skill focused that Fall Guys is actually too skill oriented. I'd rather they remove infallible and make the game more luck/party focused if anything. I think the simplicity and personally what I'd consider lack of much truly game changing luck is what lends itself to being too skill based and competitive. Better players constantly perform well, I see it all the time among players I know, and of course that's to be expected even if it were more luck based, but it'd be nice to have lesser skilled player be able to pull out more clutch wins for insanely random reasons. I always got a Takeshis Castle vibe but it's missing the pure bullshit of Takeshis Castle laugh I think it needs more of that, where you're doing your very best but you're dunked into the slime and eliminated for the hell of it.

Thing is, a lot of those 'issues' like other beans tussling, that's the nature of online multiplayer that I feel actually tests someone's skill. Anyone could brute force against something static like, say, a level in a shooter game, and push to be high ranked on its leaderboard (take Call of Duty spec ops modes), or heck, even Trials I imagine to some degree. But something that tests your mechanics that's ever changing, where you have do strategies and adapt on the fly to other players and actively live compete with them, shows real mastery of the games mechanics at will, that feels like more of a test of skill particularly as a competition of skill amongst others. A person who can anihilate me in multiplayer is more 'impressive' (I use that term loosely) than someone ranked above me on a leaderboard in my eyes because given enough replays I can overtake that leaderboard position without necessarily truly improving my skill, but I can't beat them in multiplayer without matching and exceeding their level of skill (especially those more 'hardcore' competitive titles, like fighting games and the like)

Streaks likewise I think indicate skill more so than individual performances ever could because it demonstrates consistency of ability. Anyone could theoretically have that one good game via that godly combination of circumstances whilst they're having a good day. Match into a lobby of easy players, have support heavy teammates, get advantagous loot/rings and whip out 20+ kills in Apex whilst perhaps your average game you might only get a kill or 2 and generally not win. Meanwhile another guy may have never had 20 kills before, but wins more often than not whilst getting bare minimum 5 or 6 kills, maybe averaging 10+. I know who I'd consider the more skilled player statistically, especially since the variety of players they have likely faced and still came out on top more often than not. If I had to judge someone on their highlights or lowlights that'd be totally unfair, we all have amazing days and bad days. It's why I also dislike exam heavy qualifications, one bad day, didn't sleep, cat died, whatever and you're labeled a low grade when you could be the absolute best your school/university has ever seen in that field meanwhile someone could just have a lucky break on that one day, memorised the right stuff that just happened to show up. Have a series of exams however, that dudes going to fall apart and you're going to prove your 'superiority'.

The fluid nature of multiplayer games can be situational and opportunistic which can feel like luck plays a hefty role, but much like sports it is seperates the ones good in a controlled environment from the skilled. You may be great at throwing hoops in your spare time but can you actually score in a real game of Basketball where players are putting on pressure, someone may block your shot and you can't control your shooting position at all times. This kind of randomness might feel like 'luck' but it just feels like any other competitive environment. Chess geniuses may be plotting 20 moves ahead but they're still adapting and responding to what the other player does. In regards to Fall Guys, aside from the obvious candidates I mentioned before like Jinxed and Team Tail, most qualifying rounds and the games core mechanics aren't themselves luck oriented. There's actually, much like with the simplicity of Rocket League, a lot of high level nuance people have discovered and fine tuned with the mechanics. A high level Slime Climb and a low level Slime Climb are like night and day to watch. Much like how speedrunners find that extra nuance in mechanics to make routes that most people wouldn't think possible (glitches aside). Doing it with a crowd of real players makes it difficult to get that 'perfect' run, but a more skilled player would be able to use their understanding of the games mechanics to strategise and overcome, everyones in the same boat. I've seen (okay, these are 'elite' level lol) players stay back to show off/emote and then overtake everyone and get 1st. I always say to myself, if I need to perfect circumstances to succeed then I'm obviously not at the point where I'm skilled at the game. If I'm in a racing game doing time trials and topping my friends leaderboard, then in a real game against them I'm randomly bumped, if I lose I'm not necessarily blaming that bump from the car, everyone probably took a bump or two but they adjusted, their driving line didn't go out the window because one thing didn't go their way.

It's crazy to think how opposite our views are on FG regarding luck to skill though, you think 95% luck whilst I think it's too highly skill driven for what it's trying to be laugh I love the chat.

Sorry for splurging again, don't worry, if you end responding with anything I'll condense any response to that to 1 sentence maximum laugh what can I say, I'm a rambler.
Posted by Harris59 on 15 May at 20:49
Slayer1189 Just really commenting to acknowledge that I have read all the comments. Couple very brief takeaways;

1) We all seem to pretty much agree to let others be and do what they want, but where we disagree we respectively disagree and as Harris says I love that!

2) Slime Climb + Hex-A-Gone = Dream combo back in S1. So many of my wins and streaks were a result of that toast

3) As for Nerfing games and trophy lists reflecting a game accurately, these are two topics I may explore further in future blogs but i'll leave it at that for now.

4) Totally agree on dynamic vs static being a totally different skillset. Broadly speaking, Single Player vs Multiplayer is a good indication of the difference as most single player are static, but an interesting blend of the two are roguelike games which I love smile

5) Regarding the comparison to sport, this is something I might also do a separate blog for in future (I am aware I haven't blogged in months redface). Atsuma is already aware of my thoughts on this. The gist of it is that people always talk about what is 'fair' in a competition (be that Apex, Fall Guys, Sports, GTTSC, Weightlifting, Net Worth or who can attach the most clothes pegs to their face). Basically any arena in which people could be competitive. Everyone seems to make it 'fair', but my core disagreement is that it's not possible. Unfairness is too baked into the world for us to be capable of removing it, no matter how hard we try.
Posted by Slayer1189 on 16 May at 19:16
NekoRave No I agree totally. Jumping up and ruining public lobbies is without a doubt griefing, however I do understand especially in my case thousands of games and spending months to get really good is doable but I don't exactly want to get good at every game (used the God hand cheeze for dauntless which melted bosses) if it saves me hundreds of hours I'm torn between the time and the trophy. I really think that overall boosters need to realize the gatekeepers they see typically are very passionate about the game and just want to play it especially if they are the only ones active it can be rather frustrating. As for single player I feel like the only person you cheat is yourself and it also depends on the game. I used a debug menu for Conan exiles as I loathe ark type games they are a drag whereas cuphead I want to do by myself and enjoy the game. Not every game has to be enjoyed and it's really catered around your interests. I'm pretty much antisocial and I don't really care what people think of my account but I love doing hard and rare games and if I end up exploiting grinds sometimes meh it's whatever but if I love the game I don't mind grinding it out. If only I was robotic and has an endless lifespan I'd truly get the most out of my games but I know my prime is dwindling and I won't be able to do half the stuff that I want in 30 years. I'm playing all the online crazy stressful session Dex based stuff while I can haha nothing personal for those that get in the way of my accomplishments
Posted by NekoRave on 17 May at 00:53
Harris59 @Slayer1189
2) Yes, those were top tier. Whilst initially I only ranked Slimb Climb as S-tier in my tier list, I do now think Hex belonged there too.

3) I'd love to see what you have to say on the topic if you make the blog in the future.

4) On the subject of luck and such, it's roguelikes that I often see get given the 'it's pure RNG' excuse for failure. Sure, some of them are a tad unbalanced at the start because they have permanent progression while others you can get overpowered runs like Isaac for example by just being fortunate but if you're decent enough at the game you can get through without a single item or permanent upgrade, every run is able to be completed (bare in mind I haven't played or know of EVERY roguelike and theres probably some with actual impossible seeds, I don't know). I feel like the moment any form of randomness is included in a game it's mistakenly labelled as dictating success or failure and that the game no longer takes skill and is just 'all about luck'.

5) Again man, I'd love to see a blog from you.

@NekoRave Yeah I see that, getting really good or grinding in one game when there's a sea of others and finite time in this world don't go well together. It's why I'll never be particularly high ranked or highly competitive in the multiplayer games I've gotten into (Rocket League, Siege, Apex) because I'll never focus all my time on those game exclusively. I like having a go-to multiplayer game on the side (something I'm lacking at the moment since Apex forced crossplay on me and I uninstalled it) but it will always be just that, something on the side. I use to play competitively with some games in my younger years but it meant I was playing that game like 90% of my gaming time and while that was fine back then because I didn't have a big collection, these days, I have a backlog laugh.

I have no problem with 'exploiting' an arbitrary grind, I'm not a robot and I don't have unlimited time neither, if I can rubber band my controller and wake up rounding off some random repetitive task then I'm okay with that. Helldivers being an example off the top of my head (I wrote a solution explaining the method too) I'd already completed everything to 100% so I may as well have that randomly grindy last trophy right? Heck, I'd been contemplating organising to grind out badges in Guilty Gear with someone. Nothing is skill oriented in there nor would it disrupt anyone else, just doing the same things 100 times, stuff like that, but I don't think it's really worth any of my time.

I feel you on the dwindling prime, I think I'm long past my prime at this point. I still love to challenge myself, it's always been how I approach my gaming, but I know that younger me would have the better reflexes laugh, at least my extra years of experience play some role in trying to counterbalance the effects of age.
Posted by Harris59 on 18 May at 02:52