TT Top Five: What We Hope to See from Kojima

I agree. Contrasting good things with the bad things doesn't negate, it's not a zero-sum game.

BillyHorrible said:ExtremePhobia said:I'm at work, but I imagine that's probably not the scene where:

*** Spoiler - click to reveal ***she takes down three men and chips a guy's tooth trying to ram a knife into his mouth or where she un-handcuffed herself to snipe a jet pilot from a moving helicopter, or shoots between helicopter blades for funsies, or jumps into a burning acid pit just to get a little trinket for a kid. How about before she got her powers, she was still trying to kill Big Boss after being lit on fire rather than fleeing. Does it include how the men (not the women, interestingly) refer to her in hushed, terrified tones as a monster? She broke out of her cell on two different occasions. Even Master Miller is afraid of her. How about that time a guy tried to rape her and she kicked the crap out of him? Or her sacrifice at the end at the end to save Big Boss.

*sigh* You’re aware that she’s more than fishnet stockings and some flirtation (which, by the way, only surfaces if her bond level with you is high), right? I just listed 9 individual awesome things about her, but let's by all means continue to exclusively focus on her appearance and sexuality...That's my whole point, really. If she was just a woman wearing army clothes and doing all those thing, she would be badass. But no, they chose to clothe her like that and they chose to make her do things like crawl in the rain and stretch in the heli.

You have to look at the whole picture, you can't just ignore part. I'm discussing the part of her I don't like, and you're talking about the part I have no problem with. It's like saying "Can we not talk about Putin's anti gay views and just agree he's awesome for riding a horse?" You're focussing on a different bit of the character than what people have problems with and you can't do that, you have to look at the big picture.Interesting you say he's not looking at the big picture when that's exactly what you're doing. You can't just go OH BUT SHE'S DANCING IN THE RAIN AND WEARING FEW CLOTHES THAT MAKES KOJIMA SEXIST and immediately say that invalidates her character. Just because it makes YOU uncomfortable doesn't make her a sexist portrayal. Again you're dodging the argument by arguing semantics, this time against someone who has played the game much more extensively than you have.

LunchCannon54 said:BillyHorrible said:ExtremePhobia said:I'm at work, but I imagine that's probably not the scene where:

*** Spoiler - click to reveal ***she takes down three men and chips a guy's tooth trying to ram a knife into his mouth or where she un-handcuffed herself to snipe a jet pilot from a moving helicopter, or shoots between helicopter blades for funsies, or jumps into a burning acid pit just to get a little trinket for a kid. How about before she got her powers, she was still trying to kill Big Boss after being lit on fire rather than fleeing. Does it include how the men (not the women, interestingly) refer to her in hushed, terrified tones as a monster? She broke out of her cell on two different occasions. Even Master Miller is afraid of her. How about that time a guy tried to rape her and she kicked the crap out of him? Or her sacrifice at the end at the end to save Big Boss.

*sigh* You’re aware that she’s more than fishnet stockings and some flirtation (which, by the way, only surfaces if her bond level with you is high), right? I just listed 9 individual awesome things about her, but let's by all means continue to exclusively focus on her appearance and sexuality...That's my whole point, really. If she was just a woman wearing army clothes and doing all those thing, she would be badass. But no, they chose to clothe her like that and they chose to make her do things like crawl in the rain and stretch in the heli.

You have to look at the whole picture, you can't just ignore part. I'm discussing the part of her I don't like, and you're talking about the part I have no problem with. It's like saying "Can we not talk about Putin's anti gay views and just agree he's awesome for riding a horse?" You're focussing on a different bit of the character than what people have problems with and you can't do that, you have to look at the big picture.Interesting you say he's not looking at the big picture when that's exactly what you're doing. You can't just go OH BUT SHE'S DANCING IN THE RAIN AND WEARING FEW CLOTHES THAT MAKES KOJIMA SEXIST and immediately say that invalidates her character. Just because it makes YOU uncomfortable doesn't make her a sexist portrayal. Again you're dodging the argument by arguing semantics, this time against someone who has played the game much more extensively than you have.I'm not arguing semantics and I don't think you've gotten the point of what I'm trying to say, like at all. The big picture includes the bad parts, you can't only look at the good parts and ignore the bad. You can't just say, Putin's a cool guy because he rides a horse and ignore all the horrible comments he makes and things he does.
Prem-aka-Prince said:I agree. Contrasting good things with the bad things doesn't negate, it's not a zero-sum game.Exactly. Looking at the bigger picture is not including good stuff. Bad stuff is not helped by good stuff, it's still bad stuff.

You can't talk about Quiet being a good character because she's strong and ignore how often Kojima has her prancing in front of the camera.

https://youtu.be/3qvJx0p2eu4?t=55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTYKXMrizSo
https://youtu.be/VQvyv8iHGkQ?t=64

If you don't feel like this game is doing bad enough yet, the only other real female characters (undead snipers) get introduced this way...
https://youtu.be/Ha9FjSCRFoo?t=319

I'm not dodging any arguments and I've had enough with you pretending I do, that's your basic answer every time I say something you can't actually argue against. I've also had enough of people trying to defend Quiet when clearly something messed up is going on. I'm done with this argument and have been for a while. Anyone wanting to pretend Phantom Pain is all roses and sunshine can keep living in their bubble for all I care.

You surely can't defend Quiet being portrayed as she was? Kojima gave all this rubbish about why she pranced around in no clothes and how we'd all feel stupid that we made a "thing" of it. And the reason was so beyond silly it was insulting. I'm not going to put the reason for those of you that don't yet know, but trust me....it's silly!

I love Kojima and have no issue with women being shown in anyway which way they are comfortable, but to pretend he isn't a little bit odd with females is denying an absolute obvious truth.

BillyHorrible said:If you don't feel like this game is doing bad enough yet, the only other real female characters (undead snipers) get introduced this way...
https://youtu.be/Ha9FjSCRFoo?t=319On a more positive note, that mission looks like so much fun I'm tempted to watch that let's play by I have no idea who just to see how it plays out. Good old boxed-in scenarios reminds me of earlier MGS games, not this dull endless desert stuff which I've so far always seen in youtube videos for this game.

BillyHorrible said:I'm not arguing semantics and I don't think you've gotten the point of what I'm trying to say, like at all. The big picture includes the bad parts, you can't only look at the good parts and ignore the bad. You can't just say, Putin's a cool guy because he rides a horse and ignore all the horrible comments he makes and things he does.
Prem-aka-Prince said:I agree. Contrasting good things with the bad things doesn't negate, it's not a zero-sum game.Exactly. Looking at the bigger picture is not including good stuff. Bad stuff is not helped by good stuff, it's still bad stuff.

You can't talk about Quiet being a good character because she's strong and ignore how often Kojima has her prancing in front of the camera.

https://youtu.be/3qvJx0p2eu4?t=55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTYKXMrizSo
https://youtu.be/VQvyv8iHGkQ?t=64

If you don't feel like this game is doing bad enough yet, the only other real female characters (undead snipers) get introduced this way...
https://youtu.be/Ha9FjSCRFoo?t=319

I'm not dodging any arguments and I've had enough with you pretending I do, that's your basic answer every time I say something you can't actually argue against. I've also had enough of people trying to defend Quiet when clearly something messed up is going on. I'm done with this argument and have been for a while. Anyone wanting to pretend Phantom Pain is all roses and sunshine can keep living in their bubble for all I care.It's my "basic answer" because all of you've done is either give your opinion as objective fact or waste time arguing about how people haven't been quoting the correct post, e.g. arguing semantics and dodging the question. You've also completely dismissed or ignored prior portrayals of female character in the Metal Gear series described to you by other people and have persisted with the notion that Kojima is sexist. Everything you've said about your negative opinion on Quiet can be applied to a person who views her positively (e.g. well yes she does prance around in the rain but she also does this and this. The bad does not negate the good. You have to look at the whole picture; hell, maybe look at why she does those things and why she's dressed like that). You may think it's a pretty flimsy reason but he did have a reason for dressing her the way he did aside from HE LIKES DEM TIDDYS. Hell, there are more sexualised MALE characters in the MGS series than female; Quiet is pretty much an anomaly in that regard (well, unless you count Paz in her bikini in Peace Walker but that's not standard attire). At the end of the day it's purely someone's personal opinion as to whether or not she's a good or bad portrayal and to assume someone is sexist purely because of this is incredibly presumptuous.

I want a new game in the style of Lunar Knights!

LunchCannon54 said:*blablabla, keeps going on and on*Just what the hell is wrong with you? All you do is bitch and moan about how people argue while you bring nothing relevant into the argument itself.

Don't forget that it was YOU who had to drag this "sexism" argument out while EP and me were having a talk about the ending and some secrets of Ground Zeroes, without talking about sexism at all. YOU started beating that dead horse and ruining this thread. And then all you can do is bitch about how I argue? And you have to keep going even when other's say they're done with this? Good luck with the thread, I was done and am done and you're done getting responses out of me. I suggest you have a good look at yourself before ranting at others.



FALALALALA, LALA LA LA.

Billy, that was not very mature

'Tis the season to be angry or it's beginning to feel a lot like Fistmas?

This site has become very angry the past few days which I can only put down to stress of the season so let's all kiss and make up before I tell Santa you've been bad boys and girls and he shoves coal down your chimney.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mMaRmMthWQ

Just when I thought the internet has taught me everything...mind=blown.

*World renowned
*Owns property on Fleet Street
*Has an excellent collection of jewellery
*Handsome, with cool hair
*Well spoken, and talented with hands
*Long and healthy marriage
*Business attracts customers from far and wide
*Has a batcave-like secret door built in
*Murders his customers
*Sells them as human meat pies
Good cancels out bad a.k.a. 'Bigger Picture' lessons learned: Blimey, that Sweeney Todd fellow seems like a pretty swell chap, too

Prince that's the extreme though. Where do you sit on Robin Hood type naughtiness? he stole from those who had more than enough to give to those who had none?

BillyHorrible said:LunchCannon54 said:*blablabla, keeps going on and on*Just what the hell is wrong with you? All you do is bitch and moan about how people argue while you bring nothing relevant into the argument itself.

Don't forget that it was YOU who had to drag this "sexism" argument out while EP and me were having a talk about the ending and some secrets of Ground Zeroes, without talking about sexism at all. YOU started beating that dead horse and ruining this thread. And then all you can do is bitch about how I argue? And you have to keep going even when other's say they're done with this? Good luck with the thread, I was done and am done and you're done getting responses out of me. I suggest you have a good look at yourself before ranting at others.



FALALALALA, LALA LA LA.Ha ha ha holy shit mate I was not expecting that. You started the whole Kojima has shitty attitudes toward women debate (it's the first fucking post of the thread) so you have to deal with the consequences of people disagreeing with you. Those Ground Zeroes tidbits you were discussing were in essence to support your argument. You then denied bringing it up in this thread (again, it's the first post), and then proceeded to argue about it again and make blanket statements about fictional women's appearances (which is sexist and shaming in itself, mind you). You didn't have to keep responding; no-one is holding a gun to your head. You chose to keep arguing. You have no one to blame for your own anger but yourself.

Mate if anything this has been a really good thread. It's the only one on the site which has had any extended presence and I hope people will see it and jump in and get involved so it just won't be just us three guys here going "oh yeah, my wallet is safe for another week" or "what a shitty deal, Sony" with an average of barely even one post per news update. I've had a lot of fun here.

JoystiQz-_-z said:Prince that's the extreme though. Where do you sit on Robin Hood type naughtiness? he stole from those who had more than enough to give to those who had none?This isn't a deep morality debate, which would be a whole other thing. I'm just sick of this 'your problem doesn't matter, look at all the good things that counterbalance it' nonsense. The problem is the issue, the problem is Sweeney Todd was a murderer, the problem is in our opinion deliberately writing curvy girl as near-naked is too far, and talking about anything else is just distraction.

I'm really not invested in this conversation but surely you have to be able to see that if you were complaining Sweeney Todd was a scoundrel and I start talking about how great his haircut was it's just completely beside the point.