Extended Collection as a DLC

Would it be possible to add the Extended Collection as a DLC so the base game still counts as completed?

Yeah there are a few games that launch like this but they generally don't get separated out on TT. There is also Driveclub, PvZ: Garden Warfare and TLOU: Remastered :/

The reason content gets split as DLC is because a standard copy of the game doesn't necessarily include it, and DLC ratios are calculated differently than the base game. Anyone and everyone who has the Remastered version has access to all the achievements and content, so it is not DLC. It may have been for the original, but for the Remaster it is part of the game. DLC separation isn't just something visual. It affects the calculation of multiple stats.

That's irrelevant, we still should have a choice if we want to play it or not, despite whether we have access to it or not.

Access is entirely what ratios and separation are built around. If it was whether or not we want to play it, everything would be off because you'd have people saying the same for online modes or campaign modes. It's entirely relevant because that's literally what the separation system for the site is based on.

alklein92201 said:...Anyone and everyone who has the Remastered version has access to all the achievements and content, so it is not DLC...
Access is entirely what ratios and separation are built around.I agree with you, in fact all three games should be combined because as far as we can tell there is no way to buy the games alone, meaning anyone playing one has 'access to' (owns/has started) the others.
With this in mind it should all be in one big list- all three games, and all the 'DLCs' (Add-Ons) too, which would give more accuracy in stats. Then, at the very least they should be viewable individually by the filtering options, as mentioned here
The site should use the same dlc groupings as PSN (Driveclub related)
seen here (warning: it's a disgusting amount of achievements on one page and might crash your browser)
TrueAchievements
or here
TrueAchievements
mentioned again here
Games with Trophy-issues
or discussed at length in the first thread

...but personally I think it would all be so much easier to visually parse if they were just subdivided into content. This "DLC" word is outdated and its usage on the site should really be overhauled, but given how much additional work that would be (and the GI team already have enough on their hands with the Genre system change) surely we should just put these things back to viewable as DLC but retaining fully-comprehensive numbers for the ratio calculations. Simple but effective

We do have a function on TA (not sure if it's made its way here) to visually split certain content without affecting calculations, so I wouldn't mind seeing that on remasters.

As for mixing all the games, I wouldn't go that far. They are 100% separate lists, period. Maybe you were being sarcastic, but the idea (while I disagree wholeheartedly) isn't too crazy so I don't see it

alklein92201 said:As for mixing all the games, I wouldn't go that far. They are 100% separate lists, period. Maybe you were being sarcastic, but the idea (while I disagree wholeheartedly) isn't too crazy so I don't see it I'm serious. It's a matter of logical consistency.
I don't like it either but that's because I think the rules don't add up; anyone who thinks merging the uncharted games is a bad idea clearly thinks the same, which means the rules need to be changed, not ignored on a 'when you feel like it' basis.

Prem-aka-Prince said:I'm serious. It's a matter of logical consistency.
I don't like it either but that's because I think the rules don't add up; anyone who thinks merging the uncharted games is a bad idea clearly thinks the same, which means the rules need to be changed, not ignored on a 'when you feel like it' basis.Well, except for the part where I think it's a bad idea but also don't feel the rules don't add up. Assuming you are referring to DriveClub, that's completely different. In that case, you're talking about how to separate lists that we do separate, but everyone agrees all fall under one general category -- the singular DriveClub game. Here, you are talking about merging lists that are 100% separate in every way. There's no inconsistency, and the situations (again, assuming that's what you are referring to as rules not adding up) are different.

A reasonable comparison would be if a DLC pack had its very own trophy list entirely separate from the game, not even viewed from the same object. If we were tomerge that (not that we ever would), I would call it just as absurd as this.

I don't think I was talking about Driveclub there, although the issue is obviously with the ruleset that encompasses the treatment of Driveclub (along with everything else). I wrote that reply a while ago so I can't get into that frame of mind but this topic is about Uncharted Collection and I said "uncharted games" in my reply so it looks like I was talking about that.

Logical testing:
Premise 1) If a user has proven access to a trophy, this trophy should automatically be considered as part of the access/owned set for that user, and for the statistics.
Premise 2) If a user has proven access to one trophy in a list set, it proves access to all other trophies in the same list set (e.g. all trophies in a core list).
Premise 3) All trophies in a single access-proven set should be grouped into one set on TT regardless of list sets on PSN (e.g. the Extended Collection 'DLC' Trophies)
Premise 4) There is no way to buy any Uncharted Collection game without getting access, proven, to all three.

Conclusion - If all above premises hold true then proof of access/ownership to one Uncharted Collection trophy is proof of access/ownership to the entire Collection's current trophy lists.

Is any premise here wrong? Is the argument not valid or not sound? (not rhetorical questions)

I genuinely don't see a way you can reach a different conclusion without adding the inexplicable extra premise that 'separate trophy lists should be kept separate', even though the entire reason for the rules debate (primarily in the other topic) is because separate trophy lists within a game are not kept separate. So the only distinction is that PSN says they're separate? Since when have we cared where PSN draws the line?

I don't see how we can have a consistent logic that decides where the line is between separate trophy lists without using the universal rules based around proven access.
Isn't proven access the whole justification for why these Add-Ons are uncharacteristically merged into the core game lists?
Isn't proven access the ultimate underlying factor when determining the statistics?alklein92201 said:Access is entirely what ratios and separation are built around. If it was whether or not we want to play it, everything would be off because you'd have people saying the same for online modes or campaign modes. It's entirely relevant because that's literally what the separation system for the site is based on.Technically the Uncharted Collection comes on one disc or one package on PSN, so history aside one could easily argue that that is one game divided into three sub-games. That's essentially how Halo Master Chief Collection and Rare Replay operate, so the only thing that makes Uncharted Collection different from them is that PSN put them into separate lists (because of platinums probably, so they wouldn't have to design a new system that sub-groups lists as multiple Core Games instead of Add-Ons).

When I was looking for an example I realised that Borderlands The Handsome Collection PS4/X1 works the same way (as far as I can tell you can only buy both games together, may be wrong), so I think that falls into the same problem, but to focus on that would be to go off-topic: just think of it as another example of an exception that questions the rules.

p.s. A reminder: PS3's trophy list grouping calls them Core Game/Add-On, since they are not always DLC
p.p.s. Sorry for the long answer, I got carried away again

OK, I assumed you were referencing Driveclub since you mentioned the rules not adding up, it seemed to me you were hinting at something outside the discussion (Driveclub being the big one for separation discussion).


Before my response, I do want to reiterate that while I may heavily disagree, I don't actually think the idea is all that crazy. So please don't think this is a "that's stupid" point of view, just "I get that, but..."

Premise 1) Agreed
Premise 2) Agreed
Premise 3) Agreed
Premise 4) To my knowledge, so agreed

Conclusion - If it is in fact true that you can't get them separate, again, agreed.

Since when have we cared where PSN draws the line?We've always cared, to an extent, and in certain categories. We use Sony's XP values as the base for our scores, for example. The stats may be based on the idea that the system isn't perfect and can be improved, but that doesn't mean they are based on the idea that everything about Sony's system is wrong. Games having entirely separate lists where they do, for example, is a place we consider it right. Uncharted 2 Remaster is not Uncharted 3 Remaster, not matter what. Claptrap's Robot Revolution (or whatever it's called) is Borderlands, though.

Proven access isn't the ultimate factor in the process, but it is a big factor. Another factor is whether it's even the same game game (also a fairly large part of the process). Proven access isn't the end all be all, it's taken with other pieces of information. In the case of Add-Ons, you are still playing the same game, just a different part. In the case of separate games, like I said, Uncharted 2 is not Uncharted 3. While having one of these remasters proves access, that does not make them two parts of a single item (which is what merging would indicate).

one could easily argue that that is one game divided into three sub-gamesI disagree. You could argue, and I would agree, that it is one product, but I cannot see any logic that even maybe it could be considered one game with "sub" games (assuming we even wanted to get into the hassle of trying to define sub games and proven access between sub games, which is exactly what would have to happen).

I do think that Uncharted would have been better off doing a single list like your examples of Halo MCC or Rare Replay. I can see why they didn't though. Platinums are big in trophies, and you either have the disappointing choice of one platinum that requires completing all three games, or having three platinums for one game (just... no ).



Of course, this is all assuming there isn't even a "It's just more work than it's going to be worth" aspect on the dev side to go with it.

alklein92201 said:

*** Spoiler - click to reveal ***..So please don't think this is a "that's stupid" point of view, just "I get that, but..."
1) ...The stats may be based on the idea that the system isn't perfect and can be improved, but that doesn't mean they are based on the idea that everything about Sony's system is wrong.
2) Games having entirely separate lists where they do, for example, is a place we consider it right. 3) Uncharted 2 Remaster is not Uncharted 3 Remaster, not matter what. Claptrap's Robot Revolution (or whatever it's called) is Borderlands, though.

etc) Proven access isn't the ultimate factor in the process, but it is a big factor. Another factor is whether it's even the same game game (also a fairly large part of the process). Proven access isn't the end all be all, it's taken with other pieces of information. In the case of Add-Ons, you are still playing the same game, just a different part. In the case of separate games, like I said, Uncharted 2 is not Uncharted 3. While having one of these remasters proves access, that does not make them two parts of a single item (which is what merging would indicate).

one could easily argue that that is one game divided into three sub-gamesI disagree. You could argue, and I would agree, that it is one product, but I cannot see any logic that even maybe it could be considered one game with "sub" games (assuming we even wanted to get into the hassle of trying to define sub games and proven access between sub games, which is exactly what would have to happen).

I do think that Uncharted would have been better off doing a single list like your examples of Halo MCC or Rare Replay.

y) I can see why they didn't though. Platinums are big in trophies, and you either have the disappointing choice of one platinum that requires completing all three games, or having three platinums for one game (just... no ).

z) Of course, this is all assuming there isn't even a "It's just more work than it's going to be worth" aspect on the dev side to go with it.

Ok, that was a good reply, and on first read I thought I would be able to break it down and reply briefly (but I failed)

1) I'm not saying it's all wrong, if anything the inconsistency shows a problem with the site treating Add-Ons like they're wrong, but no I'm just saying the lines in the sand are wrong, which is exactly the same premise the Add-On alteration rules are based on (but that's about the only thing it has to do with the Add-Ons in this debate)

2) Why does this line get 'untouchable' privileges where official Add-On separations don't? No reason is given other than convenience

3) Well I never said 2 and 3 are the same, but they are both Uncharted Collection, so I think this point falls down pretty quickly

etc) I tried to subdivide the rest so I could answer point by point but I couldn't bring myself to make cuts to your lines. In addressing all of it, the points are these:
Maybe you would argue that UC (let's call that short for Uncharted Collection because I am getting tired of typing it) is "not a game", then I will agree with you that it is a single "item" or "purchase" because I think we don't need to argue semantics. But whatever you call it, when you play UC1 you are "still playing the same [item], just a different part", so what happened to Premise 1/2/3?

Also, surely these games are exactly the same as MCC/Rare Replay apart from the single seemingly arbitrary distinction of where the line in the sand is drawn: and for XBL it's easy to throw unlimited achievements onto the list (Microsoft have been altering the rules to favour their own games for years).

y) For sony we have never seen an example of multiple games on the same list because the Grouping system (which was part of the catch-up patches) was designed purely to separate Core Game/Add-On, and would need an overhaul on all platforms to enable multiple Core Games. This late in the Remaster-Spam it's just not worth the effort (we know how reluctant sony are to make changes about anything when you look at the user wishlists under every system software update).

We've seen three plats on one disc plenty of times before though, the difference is that they were all available individually on PSN. Prince of Persia SoT trilogy, Sly Collection, Ratchet & Clank Trilogy... and what about Assassin's Creed American Saga and Batman Arkham's something something collection etc. etc.

z) If you're talking about the TT Devs then I can only imagine, but I figure if we're going to start manually deciding where the lines are then we'd better do a good job of it. In this case it's not that dramatic a suggestion, just put all three games on the already existing page for UC. DC was an exceptional case and to be honest UC probably is too (they may even release the games individually eventually which may or may not make all of this irrelevant), but if we're going to make custom rules in the pursuit of accuracy then we should examine and refine them in the same pursuit of accuracy.

I can get on board with all the discussions above and see where everyone is coming from.

However, if I have a platinum trophy which states "you have earned all of (x's) trophies" I consider that game to be complete and any add on trophies are just that. I currently count Uncharted Drakes Fortune as a completed game and it bugs me that this site doesn't have a setting to allow me to have it count here as a completed game.

Splitting this collection in to 3 game lists is going against the rules. This is just another exception to the rule for whatever reason. If we continue to add DLC into the main game since it came with the game, then the only way to treat UC is to combine all three

Prem-aka-Prince said:Not sure if it's different in different countries but you can buy each of the Uncharted games Remastered on PS4 separately in my country. I have the Nathan Drake Collection personally, but you can buy them separately and all physically too.

BurnedChipmunk said:You couldn't almost 2 years ago when this thread was last commented on. They have since released the separate games which makes this argument less valid now

Prem-aka-Prince said:I must have been real bored when I was younger
In any case I don't remember what I said or why but at least it seems I don't have to revoke all of it just yet