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The site should use the same dlc groupings as PSN (Driveclub related)

  • BarsoomianBarsoomian329,357
    Posted on 22 September 15 at 23:42
    In Driveclub, there are 5 trophies which on PSN are grouped as the 'Driveclub Tour', and on TT they are grouped into the main game. The side effects of this are:

    1. People with the PS+ Edition are able to get 100% on the base game trophies list in PSN, including Platinum, but they cannot get a TT completion.

    2. The completion figures and TT stats for these trophies become far more inaccurate, due to the huge size of player pool which is ineligible for those trophies but are counted anyway in the TT stats. That could easily be 50% of the pool.

    There will always be games that are easier to complete than others, or faster to complete than others, or have unobtainable trophies due to online pass or downed servers, or are free to play and complete, or are free to play and complete but are much easier to do so with money, and so on. My point is, let PSN and the game developers decide how they want to group their trophies, and a trophy site should use that.

    The interesting thing in this case is that despite the massive importance the site places on quality data, changing from the PSN groupings here actually makes the data far less accurate than leaving it the way the designers intended.

    For instance, 'The Legend' is listed here as 14% completion and TT score 2.66, which sounds like it must be quite hard to get. However, 'The Rookie' which is trivial to get, only has 43% completion here, because probably half the player pool doesn't have access to those dlc trophies. 'The Legend' should really be at around 30%.

    This is coming from someone who did buy the full game and is on path to Platinum and TT completion. I realize that grouping these the way PSN does will make the rarity decrease from current artificially inflated levels (aka the TT score will decrease), and I'm fine with that because at least it will be far more accurate than it is now.
  • Removed Gamer

    Removed Gamer

    Posted on 23 September 15 at 06:21
    Here's my opinion on it, though I'm keeping Driveclub out of my reasoning since I want to take a look at the rules in general.

    It's a question about which is the lesser of two evils, really. The problem with how it works on PSN is that many people will have certain DLC (such as remastered versions with everything included). The best option for these games would probably be to just put the DLC in the main game since people DO have it, keeping the DLC separate would cause the ratios to deflate and would not be true to the fact that everyone who owns the game, owns the DLC.

    The drawback with the TT reasoning, in my eyes, is the following: while something is meant as DLC - something extra - TT is making it part of the main game. It's forcing additional content on people. I think the main problem here is that TT classifies the trophy list as the "main game", while it should be classified as the "base game". On the friend feeds, we already make a distinction between completion of a full game and completion of a base game.

    In my eyes, choosing the DLC separation like on PSn is the lesser of the two evils. The games should just be split between base game and extra content. I understand that this causes a tiny problem for the ratios, but if that is considered as so big a problem then we should just take another look at the ratio system. I'm perfectly fine with ratios from DLC being counted like they are all part of the base game.

    In case the above is too much text: while there are drawbacks to using the PSN system, I think the TT system causes other problems which are worse in my eyes. This idea is getting a +1 from me.
    #TurnOffTrophyNotifications
  • Posted on 23 September 15 at 10:54, Edited on 23 September 15 at 11:01 by Prem-aka-Prince
    I don't agree with this unless I can see more examples. As far as I can tell there is only one serious misinterpretation and it is with driveclub. The problem is not caused by the DLC separation rules but by a conscious decision to classify the disc game as the main game instead of the PS+ edition. Now let's not get discriminatory about whether PS+ users are subhuman or not. The fact is the game was released with a simple version and a supplemented version and the supplemented version has been chosen as the main game/base game for reasons unexplained.

    The rule in question is an exception designed to normalise ratios for games which are confirmed to include DLC, such as TLoU remastered, sleeping dogs definitive edition, etc. It helps for things like grounded mode in TLoU which will only be counted as owned once you've already beaten it, which makes the stats terrible. (15% on PS4 vs 99% on PS3- and PS3 was the one where you had to buy it).

    It also helps that, as far as I can tell, every game treated in this way has the DLC on disc.

    The thing that makes this system imperfect is that it won't always confirm that you own stuff even when you do, and this applies to PS3 also, when buying GOTY editions or game bundles (Flower, FlOW, Journey PS4). Therefore it has only limited accuracy.

    If you really wanted a best of both you could re-separate the DLCs but make them have the same ratio calculations as if they were in the base game (similar to title update handling but not even requiring any download). This would allow people to get more completions, but is that really the issue here?

    The two problems with this is that people can once again ignore DLC which they clearly do own, and also it would not fix the driveclub issue at all because the ratios would still be over the top since the whole point of the debate is that this assumed ownership is NOT CONFIRMED and that IN REALITY the statistics show it to be more wrong than right.

    The real solution is much less of an overhaul, simply move the assumed line of ownership to dis-include the supplementary complete-edition exclusive trophies. The only reason that the DLC is included in the previous examples is because they are the only version available so it can be safely assumed they are included, but that is simply not the case here.

    *** Spoiler - click to reveal ***
    =Semper Fi=
  • BarsoomianBarsoomian329,357
    Posted on 23 September 15 at 14:57
    Prem-aka-Prince said:The real solution is much less of an overhaul, simply move the assumed line of ownership to dis-include the supplementary complete-edition exclusive trophies. The only reason that the DLC is included in the previous examples [TLOUR] is because they are the only version available so it can be safely assumed they are included, but that is simply not the case here. [Driveclub]That's a great point. This rule works for TLOUR's Grounded dlc, but it doesn't work for Driveclub. Instead of TT trying to decide what is a "base game" or a "full game", which imo is a losing battle in these days of F2P, remasters and PS+ Editions, maybe the rule should be about ownership.

    To continue the TLOUR example, on the PS4 version the Left Behind, Grounded and MP dlc are included in the purchased game, but they are separate on PSN. On TT, they are included in the main game list because the site says that's the full game. In the PS3 version on TT those dlc's are still separate. If the TT rule is about deciding what a "full game" is then shouldn't the PS3 versions dlc trophies be retroactively merged into the main games list? The deciding factor can't be about how money is spent because we have F2P games with trophies. If OTOH the TT rule were about assumed ownership (which should lead to more accurate stats), then TLOU's PS3 dlc's would remain separate on TT and so would Driveclub Tour.

    I only mentioned PS+ Edition Driveclub owners not getting completions on TT because it seems odd to me that the game developers and Sony should decide that's a completion, but a site tracking those trophies decides it isn't, and in the process introduces much larger errors into the numbers.

    Prem-aka-Prince said:p.s. Site Wishlist is where ideas go to die, so good luck getting any more replies.You're probably right, but I figured I'd give it a chance.
  • TrueTrophyTrueTrophy13,467
    Posted on 23 September 15 at 15:08
    Thanks for the input guys,

    Here's the current thinking.

    We don't take PSN's separation of content currently as DLC trophies are calculated differently to base game trophies, and, as you've pointed out there are cases where PSN split out DLC which isn't DLC.

    Secondly, in the case of DriveClub, the "full" retail game came out first and we are therefore using that as the "base game".

    In this instance, there is no right or wrong - if we change it and you bought the full game you would think it was wrong. If we leave it as it is and you played the PS+ without the other pack, then it's wrong too.

    We're going to stick with the original list for this one as to change trophies down the line messes up people's scores retrospectively, and that's not something we're particularly keen on doing.
  • Removed Gamer

    Removed Gamer

    Posted on 26 September 15 at 15:33
    TrueTrophy said:We don't take PSN's separation of content currently as DLC trophies are calculated differently to base game trophies, and, as you've pointed out there are cases where PSN split out DLC which isn't DLC.This may be a good time to look at the DLC calculations then...

    Personally I think that DLC should just be calculated like it's part of the main game. If we do that, it has the added bonus of making the DLC separation conversation moot - we can just separate all DLC like PSN shows and it won't affect the ratio calculations any more.

    I never really understood DLC ratio calculations anyways. I realise why the old way was bad (calculate every DLC as if it's a separate game), but the new way seems only marginally better. Since every gamer who owns a game also has the option to buy the DLC, giving the DLC standard ratios as if part of the main game only makes sense to me.
    #TurnOffTrophyNotifications
  • Posted on 26 September 15 at 16:28, Edited on 26 September 15 at 16:35 by WebChimp_UK
    DLC ratios are calculated in the way they are so that we're only taking into account the proportion of the user base that have unlocked a trophy in the DLC pack. If we calculate it based on the entire population then we're assuming that all users have the DLC, which is pretty much never the case, and we would effectively end up massively inflating the ratio of all DLC trophies.

    BillyHorrible said:I never really understood DLC ratio calculations anyways. I realise why the old way was bad (calculate every DLC as if it's a separate game), but the new way seems only marginally better.Which change do you mean? For the last change we updated the way ratios were calculated for Title Updates, not DLC. DLC was and is still based on the population of users that have earned at least one trophy in the pack.
  • Removed Gamer

    Removed Gamer

    Posted on 26 September 15 at 16:49
    WebChimp said:DLC ratios are calculated in the way they are so that we're only taking into account the proportion of the user base that have unlocked a trophy in the DLC pack. If we calculate it based on the entire population then we're assuming that all users have the DLC, which is pretty much never the case, and we would effectively end up massively inflating the ratio of all DLC trophies.

    BillyHorrible said:I never really understood DLC ratio calculations anyways. I realise why the old way was bad (calculate every DLC as if it's a separate game), but the new way seems only marginally better.Which change do you mean? For the last change we updated the way ratios were calculated for Title Updates, not DLC. DLC was and is still based on the population of users that have earned at least one trophy in the pack.
    Assuming all gamers have the DLC is perfectly fine in my eyes, since every gamer has the option to buy the DLC. It's a lesser of two evils - with the current formula, We're keeping the ratios too low on DLC with only one trophy which happens to be an extremely difficult or grindy one (for example; 1989 Movie Pack for Batman: Arkham Knight and 2008 Tumbler Batmobile Pack for Batman: Arkham Knight).

    I meant the big change, probably from even before TT was created. Before that change, DLC were essentially calculated as being separate games - so a DLC only one trophy(/achievement) in it which was extremely difficult, with only one gamer unlocking it while a thousand gamers have the main game, would still only have a 1.00 ratio.
    #TurnOffTrophyNotifications
  • Posted on 26 September 15 at 16:59, Edited on 26 September 15 at 17:03 by WebChimp_UK
    BillyHorrible said:Assuming all gamers have the DLC is perfectly fine in my eyes, since every gamer has the option to buy the DLC.With the exception of TU's, the ratios aren't based on who has the ability to play, but rather who has played. To be slightly pedantic, if we assume all users have the option buy a DLC pack then we can assume that all users have the option to buy the game too - so shouldn't ratios be based on the entire site population? Doing this would really undermine the entire point of trying to keep the TrueScore's true.
  • Removed Gamer

    Removed Gamer

    Posted on 26 September 15 at 17:07
    WebChimp said:BillyHorrible said:Assuming all gamers have the DLC is perfectly fine in my eyes, since every gamer has the option to buy the DLC.With the exception of TU's, the ratios aren't based on who has the ability to play, but rather who has played. To be slightly pedantic, if we assume all users have the option buy a DLC pack then we can assume that all users have the option to buy the game too - so shouldn't ratios be based on the entire site population? Doing this would really undermine the entire point of trying to keep the TrueScore's true.But that's ignoring my other point - if we only look at people who have at least one trophy in the DLC, we're not true to the DLC with only extremely tough trophies. I'm willing to bet a whole lot of people have the two packs I cited, but don't have the one trophy that's in it.
    #TurnOffTrophyNotifications
  • Posted on 26 September 15 at 17:12, Edited on 26 September 15 at 17:17 by WebChimp_UK
    The easiest and most consistent way for us to differentiate if a user has a DLC pack is to look at the trophies the user's earned in them. As you've noted this unfortunately this doesn't really work for DLC packs with just a single trophy, but there's really no easy resolution for this and assuming everyone has the DLC pack isn't really a fix.
  • Posted on 27 September 15 at 13:15
    I personally plan to rent Driveclub and get the main game DLC within that, but I still think we should split it out of the main game. This may be the start of free plus games that have a main game with some DLC split out, so getting it resolved now could solve a lot more problems like this in advance of it becoming a bigger issue.

    On the front of splitting out DLC from Remasters, I would love for that to happen. I was recently playing through TLOU Remastered and when I looked at my trophy list, I couldn't work out what was in the main game and what was DLC since it was mixed throughout (I order by ratio so I can see the easiest to hardest in order). I ended up just using a different website for tracking since they split it out. Anything that pushes users to other websites is never great
  • Removed Gamer

    Removed Gamer

    Posted on 27 September 15 at 14:43, Edited on 27 September 15 at 14:46 by
    Would it be an option at all for Driveclub and remastered games to have the DLC split anyways, and calculate the ratio as if it was part of the main game? That way the staff gets the ratio they want to implement, and gamers still get base game completions.

    I feel like part of the problem is that this site grew out of an Xbox site, but achievements don't really work the same as trophies since there's a platinum trophy for base game completion. It's part of the reason why I keep voting for "keep DLC separations like they are on PSN", whether it's Driveclub, a PS3 game remastered for PS4, or a Telltale game where all "DLC" episodes are part of the base game. I think the platinum trophy should account for what the base game is, not what's actually on the disc.
    #TurnOffTrophyNotifications
  • Posted on 27 September 15 at 14:46
    I agree with BillyHorrible. That would be a preferred solution if it could be implemented
  • Posted on 28 September 15 at 00:21
    BillyHorrible said:Would it be an option at all for Driveclub and remastered games to have the DLC split anyways, and calculate the ratio as if it was part of the main game? That way the staff gets the ratio they want to implement, and gamers still get base game completions.Prem-aka-Prince said:...If you really wanted a best of both you could re-separate the DLCs but make them have the same ratio calculations as if they were in the base game (similar to title update handling but not even requiring any download). This would allow people to get more completions, but is that really the issue here?
    ...
    ...four days later echo music heheh
    =Semper Fi=
  • Removed Gamer

    Removed Gamer

    Posted on 28 September 15 at 05:53
    Prem-aka-Prince said:BillyHorrible said:Would it be an option at all for Driveclub and remastered games to have the DLC split anyways, and calculate the ratio as if it was part of the main game? That way the staff gets the ratio they want to implement, and gamers still get base game completions.Prem-aka-Prince said:...If you really wanted a best of both you could re-separate the DLCs but make them have the same ratio calculations as if they were in the base game (similar to title update handling but not even requiring any download). This would allow people to get more completions, but is that really the issue here?
    ...
    ...four days later echo music heheh
    Took me some time to realise that this would be the endgame of my own reasoning wink It wasn't until I realised the importance op platinum trophies that I saw that we should be looking at base game completions on this site as well.
    #TurnOffTrophyNotifications
  • Posted on 28 September 15 at 10:56
    I forgot to mention that we could surely use the 'declared ownership' system within the newly added My Game Collection to alleviate the one-trophy DLC problem.
    =Semper Fi=
  • TrueTrophyTrueTrophy13,467
    Posted on 28 September 15 at 12:19
    Prem-aka-Prince said:I forgot to mention that we could surely use the 'declared ownership' system within the newly added My Game Collection to alleviate the one-trophy DLC problem.That relies on people being honest though.

    The GM ratio solution already handles one-trophy DLC packs so I don't think we need to go there again.

    In order to do what you want, the non-plus trophies would need to be put in a title update. We could potentially do that.
  • Removed Gamer

    Removed Gamer

    Posted on 28 September 15 at 12:50, Edited on 28 September 15 at 12:51 by
    TrueTrophy said:In order to do what you want, the non-plus trophies would need to be put in a title update. We could potentially do that.Would it also be possible to do this with DLC in remastered games? I know the OP is worried about Driveclub but I'm trying to fit in the larger issue.
    #TurnOffTrophyNotifications
  • TrueTrophyTrueTrophy13,467
    Posted on 28 September 15 at 13:41
    BillyHorrible said:TrueTrophy said:In order to do what you want, the non-plus trophies would need to be put in a title update. We could potentially do that.Would it also be possible to do this with DLC in remastered games? I know the OP is worried about Driveclub but I'm trying to fit in the larger issue.If it's released as a separate trophy list then, no, but we could use our new Trophy Grouping code that we made for Halo MCC and Rare Replay over on TA to separate the packs out.
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